Sufi Wisdom with James Fadiman, Ph.D. & Robert Frager, Ph.D.

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"If words come out of the heart they will enter the heart, but if they come from the tongue, they will not pass beyond the ears." These are the words of a Sufi mystic, and express the essential core of Sufism--approaching God through the heart. James Fadiman and Robert Frager explore the depth and breadth of this rich and complex 1500-year-old tradition, describing the beauty, wisdom, sensuality and humor they have found in their studies spanning the past two decades. They discuss what Sufism has in common with other religions, and what sets it uniquely apart. (hosted by Michael Toms)


James Fadiman Ph.D. is a former president of the Institute of Noetic Sciences, a professor of psychology and one of the foremost researchers in micro-dosing studies. He's the author of many books and is cofounder of the Sophia University, rooted in transforming the transpersonal. He's been researching healthy multiplicity for more than 20 years.

James Fadiman's books include: 

  • The Psychedelic Explorers Guide (Park Street Press 2011)
  • Be All That You Are (Westlake Press 1986)
  • Unlimit Your Life  (Celestial Arts 1989)
  • The Other Side of Haight: A Novel (Celestial Arts 2001)
  • Your Symphony of Selves: Discover and Understand More of Who We Are (coauthor Jordan Gruber J.D.) (Park Street Press 2020) 

Robert Frager, Ph.D., is a founder and past President of the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology. He has taught psychology and religious studies at the University of California (Santa Cruz and Berkeley) and is a sheikh in the Halveti-Jerrahi Sufi Order. He is also a practicing psychologist and a seventh-degree black belt in Aikido.

 Robert Frager’s books include:

  • Heart, Self, and Soul: The Sufi Psychology of Growth, Balance, and Harmony (Quest Books 1999)
  • Sharing Sacred Stories: Current Approaches to Spiritual Direction and Guidance (Crossroads Press 2007)

They are co-editors of:

  • The Essential Sufism: From Rumi to Muhammad (HarperSanFrancisco 1997)

Topics Explored in This Dialogue

  • What's beneath 10,000 veils
  • Comparisons of Sufism and other religious traditions
  • The power behind "the glance of the master"
  • Excerpts from Rumi and other great Sufi mystics
  • People you might not normally connect with Sufism
  • Some excellent resources for studying traditional Sufism
  • Whirling dervishes and "the turn"
  • The inherent dangers of being a spiritual teacher

Host: Michael Toms        Interview Date: 11/20/1997       Program Number: 2684