Sufi Wisdom with James Fadiman, Ph.D. & Robert Frager, Ph.D.

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"If words come out of the heart they will enter the heart, but if they come from the tongue, they will not pass beyond the ears." These are the words of a Sufi mystic, and express the essential core of Sufism--approaching God through the heart. James Fadiman and Robert Frager explore the depth and breadth of this rich and complex 1500-year-old tradition, describing the beauty, wisdom, sensuality and humor they have found in their studies spanning the past two decades. They discuss what Sufism has in common with other religions, and what sets it uniquely apart. (hosted by Michael Toms)


Both Frager and Fadiman are psychologists who serve as inspiration to the other.

They are co-editors of:

  • The Essential Sufism: From Rumi to Muhammad (HarperSanFrancisco 1997)

Topics Explored in This Dialogue

  • What's beneath 10,000 veils
  • Comparisons of Sufism and other religious traditions
  • The power behind "the glance of the master"
  • Excerpts from Rumi and other great Sufi mystics
  • People you might not normally connect with Sufism
  • Some excellent resources for studying traditional Sufism
  • Whirling dervishes and "the turn"
  • The inherent dangers of being a spiritual teacher
Host: Michael Toms        Interview Date: 11/20/1997       Program Number: 2684